Discussion:
[AMRadio] 3-500Z vs 4-400A
Patrick Jankowiak
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Ok, in the name of versatility,

suppose there's this simple transformer coupled push pull
modulator chassis, set up for 4-400A's in class B. (yes but read
on) In the chassis, the socket terminals which would go to the
4-400 control grids have a 20K resistor between them and the
screen grid terminals. The idea is to limit the control grid
current of the 4-400, and let most of the audio drive the screen
grids. Kind of like the old 120W class B zero bias 807 modulator
from the ARRL and RSGB handbooks. I won't nit pick about exactly
what class it is, probably more like real-world AB2.

Ok. so I drop in a pair of 3-500Z's. Of course the 20K resistors
would not matter when the 3-500Z was inserted, as all 3
non-filament pins are connected to the triode's grid.

I throw a DPDT switch, to change taps on the driver transformer
from ones supplying 1000V peak grid to grid (to drive the screens
of the 4-400's as triodes), to those taps supplying a lesser
voltage appropriate for the 3-500Z's.

workable? Interesting? nuts?


Best regards,

Patrick
W7QHO at aol.com ()
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Patrick,

Never tried it, but my understanding is one simply needs to tie the screen
and control grids directly together on the 4-400 to make it a zero bias Class B
triode. This is what is done with 813s. Not sure what kind of a peak
grid-to-grid input voltage swing would be needed but 1 KV seems kinda high. Have
used 807s with the 20K resistor setup. Worked FB. Have also had good luck
with sweep tubes by grounding the control grids and driving the screens only.

Give your scheme a try and let the rest of us know how it works out.

Dennis D. W7QHO
Glendale, CA
wa5bxo at pctechref.com ()
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
I don't know what the 3-500Z's like to look into for a load but it sounds perfectly feasible to me.

John, WA5BXO

-----Original Message-----
From: amradio-***@mailman.qth.net [mailto:amradio-***@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Patrick Jankowiak
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:39 PM
To: ***@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [AMRadio] 3-500Z vs 4-400A

Ok, in the name of versatility,

suppose there's this simple transformer coupled push pull
modulator chassis, set up for 4-400A's in class B. (yes but read
on) In the chassis, the socket terminals which would go to the
4-400 control grids have a 20K resistor between them and the
screen grid terminals. The idea is to limit the control grid
current of the 4-400, and let most of the audio drive the screen
grids. Kind of like the old 120W class B zero bias 807 modulator
from the ARRL and RSGB handbooks. I won't nit pick about exactly
what class it is, probably more like real-world AB2.

Ok. so I drop in a pair of 3-500Z's. Of course the 20K resistors
would not matter when the 3-500Z was inserted, as all 3
non-filament pins are connected to the triode's grid.

I throw a DPDT switch, to change taps on the driver transformer
from ones supplying 1000V peak grid to grid (to drive the screens
of the 4-400's as triodes), to those taps supplying a lesser
voltage appropriate for the 3-500Z's.

workable? Interesting? nuts?


Best regards,

Patrick
Jim candela
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Patrick,

For a "legal" AM plate modulated ham rig, running the tubes you
mentioned as you mentioned is way over kill. Heck, ~ 300 watts or so of
audio is all you will ever need to modulate the a rig designed for 375 watts
carrier output. If I had 4-400's I'd go AB1 and run it as a tetrode. Sure,
that requires a bias supply, and a screen supply. The drive will be simpler,
and a lot less swing, enough simpler to justify the extra complexity of the
extra power supplies. A 12AX7 driver would do fine.

As for your question, yes it's workable. I would use negative feedback
however to linearize those tubes a bit since distortion will be fairly high.
The hardest part of your plan is getting undistorted drive from the driver.
Maybe use one of your 2 X 8005 PA amplifiers driving a quality audio output
transformer in reverse.

Regards,
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: amradio-***@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:amradio-***@mailman.qth.net]On Behalf Of Patrick Jankowiak
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:39 PM
To: ***@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [AMRadio] 3-500Z vs 4-400A


Ok, in the name of versatility,

suppose there's this simple transformer coupled push pull
modulator chassis, set up for 4-400A's in class B. (yes but read
on) In the chassis, the socket terminals which would go to the
4-400 control grids have a 20K resistor between them and the
screen grid terminals. The idea is to limit the control grid
current of the 4-400, and let most of the audio drive the screen
grids. Kind of like the old 120W class B zero bias 807 modulator
from the ARRL and RSGB handbooks. I won't nit pick about exactly
what class it is, probably more like real-world AB2.

Ok. so I drop in a pair of 3-500Z's. Of course the 20K resistors
would not matter when the 3-500Z was inserted, as all 3
non-filament pins are connected to the triode's grid.

I throw a DPDT switch, to change taps on the driver transformer
from ones supplying 1000V peak grid to grid (to drive the screens
of the 4-400's as triodes), to those taps supplying a lesser
voltage appropriate for the 3-500Z's.

workable? Interesting? nuts?


Best regards,

Patrick
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Geoff/W5OMR
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by W7QHO at aol.com ()
Patrick,
For a "legal" AM plate modulated ham rig, running the tubes you
mentioned as you mentioned is way over kill. Heck, ~ 300 watts or so of
audio is all you will ever need to modulate the a rig designed for 375 watts
carrier output. If I had 4-400's I'd go AB1 and run it as a tetrode. Sure,
that requires a bias supply, and a screen supply. The drive will be simpler,
and a lot less swing, enough simpler to justify the extra complexity of the
extra power supplies. A 12AX7 driver would do fine.
As for your question, yes it's workable. I would use negative feedback
however to linearize those tubes a bit since distortion will be fairly high.
The hardest part of your plan is getting undistorted drive from the driver.
Maybe use one of your 2 X 8005 PA amplifiers driving a quality audio output
transformer in reverse.
Regards,
Jim
I just don't see a pair of ANYTHING as needing 1000 grid volts of drive
in Amatuer service... or am I reading that wrong?

-------------------------------
Patrick said:

Ok, in the name of versatility,

suppose there's this simple transformer coupled push pull
modulator chassis, set up for 4-400A's in class B. (yes but read
on) In the chassis, the socket terminals which would go to the
4-400 control grids have a 20K resistor between them and the
screen grid terminals. The idea is to limit the control grid
current of the 4-400, and let most of the audio drive the screen
grids. Kind of like the old 120W class B zero bias 807 modulator
from the ARRL and RSGB handbooks. I won't nit pick about exactly
what class it is, probably more like real-world AB2.

Ok. so I drop in a pair of 3-500Z's. Of course the 20K resistors
would not matter when the 3-500Z was inserted, as all 3
non-filament pins are connected to the triode's grid.

I throw a DPDT switch, to change taps on the driver transformer
from ones supplying 1000V peak grid to grid (to drive the screens
of the 4-400's as triodes), to those taps supplying a lesser
voltage appropriate for the 3-500Z's.
------------------------------

Man, my 250TH's (triode), in Class B, only require around 400vpk g-g drive,
for full output at 3kV. And 400vpk is a bunch for driving modulating tubes!


73 = Best Regards,
-Geoff/W5OMR
DOXEMF at aol.com ()
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Dennis,
With the mention of 813's it got me thinking that it might be possible to use the right multitap mod transformer and configure an ultralinear screen tap hookup thereby eliminating the screen supply and gaining the HIFI attributes
of that configuration. That would also allow me to Variac the supply and keep the scrn/pl volt ratio the same.
Been thinking of building up a universal Mod deck myself since I have the 813's and a 500W Thordarson multitap.
How's that sound?
Bill Courtright KB3DKS/1
Bob Bruhns
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Pat,

The 20K resistor idea was published in an old article on getting 120 watts
from a pair of 807s, but I have been told it really didn't produce that much
power, it did some really odd things at low audio levels, and it really
didn't sound good.

The idea about tying the control grid and screen of a 4-400 together and
using it as a triode might be better, but I suspect that the 3-500 will be a
better triode than a kludged 4-400.

Tying the screen of a 4-400 to the plate will *drastically* reduce plate
voltage limits, and plate current will be much lower at acceptable grid
potentials (instantaneous E-grid *below* instantaneous E-plate) - so it
would be impractical, because the power output capability would be massively
reduced. To do ultra-linear right would require a separate, center-tapped
screen winding on the mod transformer.

I am in favor of the 4-400, but with active screen drive to improve
linearity. Some kind of circuit could take instantaneous control-grid drive
and produce a corrective pre-distortion to the screen voltage, aimed at
making the grid-plate transfer as linear as possible, and making overload
graceful.

With lower voltage tubes such as the 6L6, 807 and 8417, it is actually
possible to accomplish this with simple resistors in series with the
screens. But the big, higher voltage tubes have so much secondary screen
emission that such resistance can not be tolerated. So with higher voltage
tubes, a more complex active screen control is required.

But when the smoke clears... you will have the output and gain of a tetrode,
but with the linearity of a triode (or better). With decently designed
feedback, you can have the source resistance of a triode as well.

I've done it with 6L6s and 8417s. Some day maybe I'll try it on 4-400s or
something.

Bacon, WA3WDR
Patrick Jankowiak
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Bob,

I agree, and although the unltralinears do sound good, I think
that cathode feedback cures more sins of the output transformer,
and does not rob power like the screen grid ultralinear setups
seem to. it gets its extra voltage from the power supply and the
tubes handle the extra current when needed. I think a good test
of the effects are to pass a low frequency square wave.

Like ultralinear it also needs a separate winding, but only
capable of making a peak voltage equal to about half the peak
grid voltage. Like the screen winding scenario, the correction to
the cathode bucks the gain to a certain definite level when all
is perfect (top of the square wave is perfectly horizontal),
decreases it during time when the HF response through the
transformer is too great (top of the square wave slopes up during
the half cycle), and increases it during time when the LF
response is poor (top of the square wave slopes down during the
half cycle) such as when the transformer is deficient in iron.
Did I explain this correctly?

When the output waveform of the transformer does not match the
input to the tube grids, the negative feedback to the cathodes
corrects the instantaneous grid-cathode voltage with the goal of
straightening up the tube-transformer combination to where it
is very linear. Higher plate voltage helps this work better, and
more grid drive voltage is needed, and if grid current is drawn,
the driver must be exceptionally well regulated, and the power
supply needs to have the capacity for high peak currents (alot of
demands).

A triangular wave is good for judging this. The straighter the
lines of the triangle, the more linear the stage. I have a couple
articles on doing this with old PA amps here:

http://www.montagar.com/~patj/mi12188a.htm
http://www.montagar.com/~patj/aph1050.htm

(or at least the audio experimenters like them) Truthfully, with
this mod, you can actually hear the difference, it will clear up
a muddy old amp right quick. Maybe would be good for the speech
amp. It also gives the amp very good regulation.

On the APH-1050's, which have good iron, I was passing a 10Hz
squarewave through two of them (one unmodified, one modified),
and on the modded one, you could really hear the laminations go
'thunk' each time the polarity was reversed, and watch the plate
voltage waveform greatly distort in order to cause the current
through the transformer to remain true to the input signal. The
unmodded one came nowhere close to faithfully reproducing a
square at 10Hz. In the modded one, there was some ringing on the
leading edges, but tuning the overall feedback loop capacitor's
value minimized it. I had to ditch the 6L6's though and use
6CD6's so there would be plenty of current capability.

The only issue with filament type tubes and this method is having
to use a separate filament transformer for each tube in the PP pair.

But back to the 4-400's since there may be questions about how
the tubes would sound having the control grids driven along with
the screens, maybe the other option would be to connect the grids
to the center tap of the filament transformer for no drive, and
just drive the screens with audio, like a zero bias triode setup.
I have not decided exactly what to do for fidelity since I am set
up for 3-500Z's right now. I may have to see if a speech amp
modified for cathode feedback and greatly oversized will be
capable of good regulation and 3-4 times the required power will
do it, assuming I can place it inside an overall feedback loop
from the modulated HV supply to the speech amp input.

The original question came up as the 3-500 and 4-400 fit the same
sockets and use the same filament supply.

Patrick
-----------
From: "Bob Bruhns" <***@erols.com>
Subject: Re: [AMRadio] 3-500Z vs 4-400A

Hi Pat,

The 20K resistor idea was published in an old article on getting
120 watts from a pair of 807s, but I have been told it really
didn't produce that much power, it did some really odd things at
low audio levels, and it really didn't sound good.

The idea about tying the control grid and screen of a 4-400
together and using it as a triode might be better, but I suspect
that the 3-500 will be a better triode than a kludged 4-400.

Tying the screen of a 4-400 to the plate will *drastically*
reduce plate voltage limits, and plate current will be much lower
at acceptable grid potentials (instantaneous E-grid *below*
instantaneous E-plate) - so it would be impractical, because the
power output capability would be massively reduced. To do
ultra-linear right would require a separate, center-tapped
screen winding on the mod transformer.

I am in favor of the 4-400, but with active screen drive to
improve linearity. Some kind of circuit could take instantaneous
control-grid drive and produce a corrective pre-distortion to the
screen voltage, aimed at making the grid-plate transfer as linear
as possible, and making overload graceful.

With lower voltage tubes such as the 6L6, 807 and 8417, it is
actually possible to accomplish this with simple resistors in
series with the screens. But the big, higher voltage tubes have
so much secondary screen emission that such resistance can not be
tolerated. So with higher voltage tubes, a more complex active
screen control is required.

But when the smoke clears... you will have the output and gain of
a tetrode, but with the linearity of a triode (or better). With
decently designed feedback, you can have the source resistance of
a triode as well.

I've done it with 6L6s and 8417s. Some day maybe I'll try it on
4-400s or something.

Bacon, WA3WDR
Patrick Jankowiak
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
It's to drive the screen grids, so since they run at 500VDC or
more in AB1, it could reasonably take 1000V G2 to G2 to fully
bring each tube to peak plate current. I think I read that the
"120W 807's" needed about 400V G2 to G2.

Patrick
--

I just don't see a pair of ANYTHING as needing 1000 grid volts of
drive
in Amatuer service... or am I reading that wrong?

-------------------------------
Patrick said:

Ok, in the name of versatility,

suppose there's this simple transformer coupled push pull
modulator chassis, set up for 4-400A's in class B. (yes but read
on) In the chassis, the socket terminals which would go to the
4-400 control grids have a 20K resistor between them and the
screen grid terminals. The idea is to limit the control grid
current of the 4-400, and let most of the audio drive the screen
grids. Kind of like the old 120W class B zero bias 807 modulator
from the ARRL and RSGB handbooks. I won't nit pick about exactly
what class it is, probably more like real-world AB2.

Ok. so I drop in a pair of 3-500Z's. Of course the 20K resistors
would not matter when the 3-500Z was inserted, as all 3
non-filament pins are connected to the triode's grid.

I throw a DPDT switch, to change taps on the driver transformer
from ones supplying 1000V peak grid to grid (to drive the screens
of the 4-400's as triodes), to those taps supplying a lesser
voltage appropriate for the 3-500Z's.
------------------------------

Man, my 250TH's (triode), in Class B, only require around 400vpk
g-g drive,
for full output at 3kV. And 400vpk is a bunch for driving
modulating tubes!


73 = Best Regards,
-Geoff/W5OMR



-----------------
Patrick Jankowiak
2007-05-13 18:27:06 UTC
Permalink
True, but the rig had a pair of 304TH's in it before, and is
capable of running ***@1A CCS on both the modulator and PA HV
supplies (separate and individually adjustable from 0-4000V), so
I want to preserve the maker's intent by not downsizing the
modulator tubes. The modulation transformer is from an RCA 1-K
broadcast transmitter. It was built back in the "DC KW" days and
has a special 'band' for 2726KHz, a Texas State Guard frequency.
Durward Tucker W5VU spent 2 years building that 24x7 KW rig and I
must avoid doing anything that would diminish its specifications,
out of respect.

There are no simple and inexpensive replacements for 304TH except
3-500Z or 4-400 (and blower). So many of the radiation cooled
tubes like the beautiful 250TH are rare and costly, and I did not
want to use 4CX250B's or smaller radiation cooled tubes, wanted
to stay with large glass. Here's the rig's page, so you can see
what I am trying to restore.

In the Binder, there is a page showing 2160 watts tested as a DC
input at carrier condition. There was no real power limit for the
Guard's transmitters.

http://208.190.133.201/tuckerkw/tucker_transmitter.html

All I can say is that with today's restrictions on peak output
power, the tubes in the rig will just idle along, and last forever..

Patrick


--
From: "Jim candela" <***@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE: [AMRadio] 3-500Z vs 4-400A
To: "Discussion of AM Radio" <***@mailman.qth.net>

Patrick,

For a "legal" AM plate modulated ham rig, running the
tubes you
mentioned as you mentioned is way over kill. Heck, ~ 300 watts or
so of
audio is all you will ever need to modulate the a rig designed
for 375 watts
carrier output. If I had 4-400's I'd go AB1 and run it as a
tetrode. Sure,
that requires a bias supply, and a screen supply. The drive will
be simpler,
and a lot less swing, enough simpler to justify the extra
complexity of the
extra power supplies. A 12AX7 driver would do fine.

As for your question, yes it's workable. I would use
negative feedback
however to linearize those tubes a bit since distortion will be
fairly high.
The hardest part of your plan is getting undistorted drive from
the driver.
Maybe use one of your 2 X 8005 PA amplifiers driving a quality
audio output
transformer in reverse.

Regards,
Jim

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